Cosmology Views

Comparing Quasar and Galaxy Redshifts

Everyone knows 11 millimeters cannot be compared to 11 degrees.

Comparing quasar red shifts to galaxy red shifts is like this.

Halton Arp is noted for observing quasars associated with Seyfert galaxies. The quasars had higher red shifts than the galaxy. Quasars were often in pairs on opposite sides of the galaxy, and the pair of quasar red shifts were similar. Those observations remain valid.

Unfortunately, Arp never explained the origin of any red shift values.

In reality, these values are quite different, like mm or degrees.

These values having such totally different meanings must never be compared.

Though comparing numbers is possible, no conclusions should result.

At 7:09 in the video, galaxy Markarian 205, whose red shift is 0.004526 from Wikipedia, is in the field with 3 quasars having red shifts of 0.46, 0.63, 1.26.

All 3 quasar red shifts are > the galaxy's red shift, and all 3 are similar.

In the first few seconds of the video, a statement is made all galaxies and quasars have red shifts.

This is ALMOST true. The z value for all quasars is > 0. It must be noted a very few galaxies have a blue shift. Many know Andromeda Galaxy or M31 has a blue shift. Many don't know the mechanism, from calcium ion absorption lines.

Galaxies have 1 of 2 red shifts: 1) hydrogen absorption line.
2) a metallic ion absorption line. Among the galaxies with a public pectrogram only calcium has been observed among the metals.

I believe Arp was never aware of the mechanisms driving different red shifts. In his books and interviews, he noted only their relative values for his important conclusion.

Now, there are other relevant observations for us.
Edwin Hubble proposed the Hubble Flow.
In 1936, he concluded the Local Group was isolated from that flow, which found with increasing distance the measured z red shift of the hydrogen absorption line increased roughly proportional to distance. It was "roughly" because it was not constant.
Since the effect is beyond the Local Group, this galaxy red shift is driven by the plasma in the Inter-Galactic Medium or IGM.

This IGM factor should be described as a ratio of z / Mpc.

My observation:

Using a Cepheid for the Mpc in this ratio, the galaxy with that Cepheid can define this ratio for the IGM effect in the line of sight to its galaxy.

Galaxies having no Cepheid could use a nearby galaxy having a Cepheid for a better guess.

Vesto Slipher made a mess of this red shift data by proposing the z value be stated as an equivalent velocity. That equivalence is valid only with an atomic absorption or emission line, never a galaxy.

A galaxy z value is driven by the IGM in the line of sight. There is no velocity present.

Stating a galaxy red shift as a velocity is a disaster; its "mess" is the false expansion.

A galaxy's real 3-D velocity cannot be measured by any Doppler effect which is only in the line of sight.

To summarize:
Galaxies beyond our Local Group have a hydrogen red shift increasing with distance. This ratio can be mesured for only galaxies with Cepheids. This ratio for the IGM is not constant throughout the universe but can vary by galaxy clusters. That inconsistency leads to anomalies like the Great Attractor.

This variable ratio is misnamed Hubble's Constant which continues to vary however it is measured.

That completes a galaxy red shift explanation.  Next is the quasar red shift.

This document can be found online:


In this document:
Basics of Quasar Spectra.

Figure 1. Typical spectrum of a quasar, showing the quasar continuum and emission lines, and the absorption lines produced by galaxies and intergalactic material that lie between the quasar and the observer. This spectrum of the z = 1.34 quasar PKS0454+039 was obtained with the Faint Object Spectrograph on the Hubble Space Telescope. The emission lines at ~ 2400 Å and ~ 2850 Å are Lybeta and Lyalpha.
(excerpt end)

Observation:  The "typical" quasar has z = 1.34.

There are many emission lines. The crucial one, also the highest intensity in the figure, is the Lyman-alpha line.

There are at least two red shift values in a quasar:

1) z for the Lyman-alpha line,
2) z for the various metallic emission lines, having a lower red shift.

At this point:

a)  the galaxy red shift is driven by the IGM in the line of sight,
b) the 2 quasar red shifts are driven by intervening atom emission lines.

Most certainly, whatever absorption and emission lines are in the spectrogram, they are not the quasar's true velocity and have nothing to do with the quasar distance.

The quasar paper was published in 2000.
The book Seeing Red by Halton Arp was published in 1997.

Figure 1-2 in the book has the spectrogram of two lobes of NGC 4258 which Arp treated as 2 quasars.

Metallic lines in the "east lobe" had z=0.653
Metallic lines in the "west lobe" had z=0.398

Unfortunately, Arp or his contributors failed to identify a Lyman-alpha emission line in either sectrogram, leaving a few with no identification at the far right in the figure, whose wave lengths have the highest red shift.

Doing an interpolation, having no original data for missed lines,  the west lobe could be z= 6.5 and the east lobe could be z = 6.65.
If Arp had recognized these missed emission lines in his book, the conclusions about quasars at z < 1 would be different when the sample included z > 6.

Whatever the second z value, it is not the same as the first. They are different mechanisms so a quasar red shift cannot be treated as just a number.

Halton Arp worked with a poor sample of quasars. They were not representative of "typical" observed in an independent study.

Arp's quasars had red shifts higher than nearby galaxies. All values were low when less than 1.0.

Without spectrograms, the quasars with Markarian 205 might not have correct z values.

Currently, according to Wikipedia  "List of the most distant astronomical objects"
the highest galaxy red shift is z= 11.09 and
 the highest quasar red  shift is z= 7.54

Arp observed the red shifts in his limited sample of quasars seemed to reduce in quantized increments.
The life cycle of a quasar must be considered.

A number of spiral galaxies are observed to eject plasmoids. These are X-ray point sources like observed in the core of M87, imaged in April 2020. A plasmoid is the active galactic nucleus in a quasar.

A Seyfert is in a class of spiral galaxies called LINER because their AGN exhibits many metallic ion emission lines.
The video notes the jets of plasma emit X-rays. That synchrotron radiation is the result of very high velocity plasma changing its path by a magnetic field. The peak frequency is driven by the plasma velocity.

When a Seyfert ejects a plasmoid from the AGN, the plasmoid also gets a cloud of metals.

An opposing pair gets a similar cloud because they are ejected from the same context.

This cloud of atoms remains ionized by intense UV or X-rays from the plasmoid.

ions capture electrons and emit a wavelength the instant they change state.

This sequence of ionization, ion motion toward plasmoid, electron capture to reduce charge, leads to cloud dispersion and decreasing red shift.

A pair of ejected similar quasars share a mechanism, so the red shift sequence is similar.

With a plasmoid pair in motion, ions are moving individually so the red shifts are not exactly in the line of sight. These slight variations in red shifts are observed.

This quantized behavior of the quasar's lower red shift  is driven by changes in the electrical capacity of the plasmoid and its cloud of ions.
 Over time, the electric charge of the plasmoid dissipates with its emission of electrons.

The YouTube video:

This was also submitted as a comment to the YouTube video.